Women Against Women

Another Rant by Bettyjean Kling

I freed a thousand slaves I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves. ~ Harriet Tubman

Remember- Not all women are angels – not all men are devils! Some of each are both! When we talk about someone who does wrong we are not talking about the entire group just about those in that group who did wrong.  It is either that or one group or the other is totally bad and the other is totally good and we know that is not possible. Therefore the following is about victims and those who victimize them not about what sex the victimizer happens to be! So get over it before you begin to read- if you got a chip go read a fairy tale – these are real stats. If you can’t handle the truth imagine what the victims are enduring while you live in la la land happily in your ignorance! If you prefer to live in reality read on! Then if you have fortitude – stand with me and let’s get moving! TMU: The Majority United – stop waiting and hoping for life to change.

I am on a tear tonight and damned it – this is going to give me trouble and I do not give a damned. Day after day after day I am getting letter after letter after letter from some so-called women’s groups telling members how to vote and what to vote for. No wonder we cannot unite- no wonder I am banging my head against the wall trying to bring the 52% together! It’ll never happen at this rate. No wonder more Conservative women want nothing to do with non-conservative women and vice versa. They each think the other hasn’t a brain one! I’m beginning to agree!

Let me give you and example. NOW has been sending out email after email telling us to vote for every pro choice candidate in the country. Still this is what we are talking about? With all the violence- in the form of murder- rape and beatings that is happening to women and girls no one is running with a heavy emphasis on VAW (Violence Against Women) issues? We are not marching for ERA and VOTE for a candidate that is pro ERA and pushing to make VAW a hate crime?

Oh and don’t think I am going to let the Conservative women off the hook either.

I have talked to Team Sarah gals and As A Mom gals. When I mention ERA or VAW- they act like I have the plague and run for the hills. These gals too have their heads up their asses. They appear to be in denial about their precious sons, preferring instead to blame someone’s wayward daughter for leading their sons astray! Apparently it’s always some bad girl’s fault according to conservative women – they are their worst enemies- it never changes.

Do they value their males more than their own females? It would appear so! Ask any mother of a male child – what a shame – their male angels can do no wrong and that is exactly why the little angels do it – because their mother’s will never believe it and always cover for them and their fathers will always say “boy’s will be boys! ” What’s worse if they have daughters they honestly believe their angel daughters who they have taught very well at home will also be perfect unless led astray by someone’s rotten son. Give me a break!

Parent’s stop living in la la land and realize what is happening to your kids and realize that your little goody goody  lessons are not always going to keep them from experimenting and even if you are lucky enough to raise angels – you cannot protect them from this crazy world. Instead change the smut around them. Demand better programming, advertising, media, movies and music! You would not raise them in a bar or a crack house even though you could explain why they should not drink or do drugs so why raise them around smut from birth and expect them to believe you that it isn’t normal or right?

This is a very different world- they are bombarded every waking minute with images and words that teach your children that females are not valued. Your daughters are bombarded by visuals of starvation as beauty and beauty as important above all else except sexual appeal and sex and brutality against her body both sexual and in the form of beatings. Pornography is no longer just sexual it is now bestiality and brutal beatings and sometimes torture and death.

Your children both girls and boys are not safe in this sex crazed society – the priest or coach may rape your son AND your daughter may be taken right out of her bedroom by the gardener one night!  Every two minutes, somewhere in America, someone is sexually assaulted, WAKE UP! 

Finally, this is a super sexualized nation and all your words of wisdom is not going to keep their raging hormones from raging – ask Sarah!

And don’t bite my head off for telling you what you refuse to see! Get your head out from where ever it is you have it stuck and do something about it! You are at fault because what you do not condemn, you’ve condoned by ommission! You are not doing your kids any favors by pretending there is no elephant in the room! And remember – conservatives have perverts too!

Society has sexualized women and girls to the point that from birth — girls and boys are bombarded with suggestions that a female’s highest and best value is as a sexual object and they both believe it from very early in life.  Some of those negative ideas for example: eye candy, sex toy, punching bag, personal property, trophy, slave or sex worker! 

How far we have fallen when 4 women a day are slaughtered by a man they love. You liberal bitching about how many soldiers we are losing in the war – soldiers who volunteered to risk their lives to go and fight.  In one year of the highest loss in the war – we lost more women to violence from the men they love then soldiers in Iraq. Where were you? You were marching in DC to stop soldiers who volunteered to fight but NOT ONE MARCH for VAW to educate anyone about the sensless slaughter, or the brutality of rape or the number of beatings of your sisters! SHAME on YOU! Why are you not marching in the streets or lending support when these women are facing these brutes in court?

Unknown thousands a day are raped by men they may or may not know and yet women’s groups continue to chant incessantly about the right to abort a possible fetus that may result from that rape but not much about all that violence  unless in results in pregnancy. What- the body doesn’t count unless it gets pregnant?

Hundreds of thousands a day land in hospitals beaten by a man they love, but you worry only about rights for the gay marriage and which by proportion is the least of the majority of women’s problems. How in the name of Venus can that possibly make and damned sense at all.

And for you Conservatives – what in God’s good name are we thinking when children are raped and buried alive- did we think that God allowed that because the parent  did not do in church for the Lord what you do or not pray hard enough? WAKE UP!

And you Conservatives- who the hell do you think is beating- raping and killing these women, including little girls and old ladies? Other women? Do you think all these females asked for it? SHAME on YOU! Then you wonder why there are so many female victims! Keep protecting the males like they need your protection!

Women are their own worst enemies. Liberals and Conservatives alike!  WAKE UP!  We need to stop this nonsense- realize what we are up against and for the sake of our sons and daughters and our country- WAKE UP – and start behaving like intelligent beings instead of Democrat and Republican robots doing what we have been breed to do! WAKE UP!

Common sense will tell you raising your children right is wonderful and the right thing to do but it is no guarantee, common sense will tell you the most important thing in your life is not your party affiliation.  Ladies, we damned well better unite and stop dividing up over abortion and gay marriage. Let those who absolutely insist on those two items go fight it themselves and stop sacrificing the entire women’s movement and our country and our children for what I perceive to be a very small percentage of the population of women. I am a live and let live gal- I have gay friends and I love them dearly and they love me. But none of my gay friends are willing to sacrifice our nation or women’s rights and allow VAW nor will they be pigeon holed and held hostage to a minority issue or two.  They deserve their rights but are a minority within the majority. These two are not the issues important to the majority of women in the country nor do they reflect the majority of the women of this nation? In order to unite we must unite around the majority issues not the minority issues.

Let us have the statistics on the percentage of women affected by the following enumerated issues as compared to the 100 percent of women who will benefit from passing the ERA and changing the laws on VAW?  

1-The absolute need (no other alternative possible) for abortions.

2- The absolute need (absolutely no other alternative possible) for marriage for gay women

U.S. Statistics / Global / Links to Statistics


Fact #1: 17.6 % of women in the United States have survived a completed or attempted rape. Of these, 21.6% were younger than age 12 when they were first raped, and 32.4% were between the ages of 12 and 17. (Full Report of the Prevalence, Incidence, and Consequences of Violence Against Women, Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey, November, 2000)

Fact #2: 64% of women who reported being raped, physically assaulted, and/or stalked since age 18 were victimized by a current or former husband, cohabiting partner, boyfriend, or date. (Full Report of the Prevalence, Incidence, and Consequences of Violence Against Women, Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey, November, 2000)

Fact #3: Only about half of domestic violence incidents are reported to police. African-American women are more likely than others to report their victimization to police Lawrence A. Greenfeld et al. (1998). (Violence by Intimates: Analysis of Data on Crimes by Current or Former Spouses, Boyfriends, and Girlfriends. Bureau of Justice Statistics Factbook. Washington DC: U.S. Department of Justice. NCJ #167237. Available from National Criminal Justice Reference Service.)

Fact #4: The FBI estimates that only 37% of all rapes are reported to the police. U.S. Justice Department statistics are even lower, with only 26% of all rapes or attempted rapes being reported to law enforcement officials.

Fact #5: In the National Violence Against Women Survey, approximately 25% of women and 8% of men said they were raped and/or physically assaulted by a current or former spouse, cohabiting partner, or date in their lifetimes. The survey estimates that more than 300,000 intimate partner rapes occur each year against women 18 and older. (Full Report of the Prevalence, Incidence, and Consequences of Violence Against Women, Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey, November, 2000)

Fact #6: The National College Women Sexual Victimization Study estimated that between 1 in 4 and 1 in 5 college women experience completed or attempted rape during their college years (Fisher 2000).

Fact #7: Men perpetrate the majority of violent acts against women (DeLahunta 1997).

Fact #8: Every two minutes, somewhere in America, someone is sexually assaulted. (Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network (RAINN) calculation based on 2000 National

Crime Victimization Survey. Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice)

Fact #9: One out of every six American women have been the victims of an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime. (Prevalence, Incidence and Consequences of Violence Against Women Survey, National Institute of Justice and Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 1998)

Fact #10: Factoring in unreported rapes, about 5% – one out of twenty – of rapists will ever spend a day in jail. 19 out of 20 will walk free. (Probability statistics based on US Department of Justice Statistics)

Fact #11: Fewer than half (48%) of all rapes and sexual assaults are reported to the police (DOJ 2001).

Fact #12: Sexual violence is associated with a host of short- and long-term problems, including physical injury and illness, psychological symptoms, economic costs, and death (National Research Council 1996).

Fact #13: Rape victims often experience anxiety, guilt, nervousness, phobias, substance abuse, sleep disturbances, depression, alienation, sexual dysfunction, and aggression. They often distrust others and replay the assault in their minds, and they are at increased risk of future victimization (DeLahunta 1997).

Fact #14: According to the National Crime Victimization Survey, more than 260,000 rapes or sexual assaults occurred in 2000; 246,180 of them occurred among females and 14,770, among males (Department of Justice 2001).

Fact #15: Sexual violence victims exhibit a variety of psychological symptoms that are similar to those of victims of other types of trauma, such as war and natural disaster (National Research Council 1996). A number of long-lasting symptoms and illnesses have been associated with sexual victimization including chronic pelvic pain; premenstrual syndrome; gastrointestinal disorders; and a variety of chronic pain disorders, including headache, back pain, and facial pain (Koss 1992).Between 4% and 30% of rape victims contract sexually transmitted diseases as a result of the victimization (Resnick 1997).

Fact #16: More than half of all rapes of women occur before age 18; 22% occur before age 12. (Full Report of the Prevalance, Incidence, and Consequences of Violence Against Women, Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey, November, 2000)

Fact #17: In 2000, nearly 88,000 children in the United States experienced sexual abuse (ACF 2002).

Fact #18: About 81% of rape victims are white; 18% are black; 1% are of other races. (Violence Against Women, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1994.)

Fact #19: About half of all rape victims are in the lowest third of income distribution; half are in the upper two-thirds. (Violence against Women, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1994.)

Fact #20: According to the Youth Risk Behavior Surveillance Survey (YRBSS), a national survey of high school students, 7.7% of students had been forced to have sexual intercourse when they did not want to. Female students (10%) were significantly more likely than male students (5%) to have been forced to have sexual intercourse. Overall, black students (10%) were significantly more likely than white students (7%) to have been forced to have sexual intercourse (CDC 2002).

Fact #21: Females ages 12 to 24 are at the greatest risk for experiencing a rape or sexual assault (DOJ 2001).

Fact #22: Almost two-thirds of all rapes are committed by someone who is known to the victim. 73% of sexual assaults were perpetrated by a non-stranger (— 38% of perpetrators were a friend or acquaintance of the victim, 28% were an intimate and 7% were another relative.) (National Crime Victimization Survey, 2005)

Fact #23: The costs of intimate partner violence against women exceed an estimated $5.8 billion. These costs include nearly $4.1 billion in the direct costs of medical care and mental health care and nearly $1.8 billion in the indirect costs of lost productivity and present value of lifetime earnings. (Costs of Intimate Partner Violence Against Women in the United States, Department of Health and Human Services, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, Atlanta, Georgia, March 2003).

Fact #24: Domestic violence occurs in approximately 25-33% of same-sex relationships. (NYC Gay and Lesbian Anti-Violence Project, October 1996.)

Fact #25: Boys who witness their fathers’ violence are 10 times more likely to engage in spouse abuse in later adulthood than boys from non-violent homes. (Family Violence Interventions for the Justice System, 1993)

Fact #26: An estimated 50,000 women and children are trafficked into the United States annually for sexual exploitation or forced labor. (U.S. Central Intelligence Agency, 2000)

Fact #27: Somewhere in America a woman is battered, usually by her intimate partner, every 15 seconds. (UN Study On The Status of Women, Year 2000)

Fact #28: A University of Pennsylvania research study found that domestic violence is the leading cause of injury to low-income, inner-city Philadelphia women between the ages of 15 to 44 – more common than automobile accidents, mugging and rapes combined. In this study domestic violence included injuries caused by street crime.

Fact #29: Following the Supreme Court’s decision in 2000 to strike down the civil-rights provision of the Federal Violence Against Women Act (ruling that only states could enact such legislation), only two states in the country (Illinois and California) have defined gender-based violence, such as rape and domestic violence, as sex discrimination, and created specific laws that survivors can use to sue their perpetrators in civil court. (Kaethe Morris Hoffer, 2004).

Fact #30: A study reported in the New York Times suggests that one in five adolescent girls become the victims of physical or sexual violence, or both, in a dating relationship.

(New York Times, 8/01/01)


Fact #31: At least 60 million girls who would otherwise be expected to be alive are “missing” from various populations, mostly in Asia, as a result of sex-selective abortions, infanticide or neglect. (UN Study On The Status of Women, Year 2000)

Fact #32: Globally, at least one in three women and girls is beaten or sexually abused in her lifetime. (UN Commission on the Status of Women, 2/28/00)

Fact #33: A recent survey by the Kenyan Women Rights Awareness Program revealed that 70% of those interviewed said they knew neighbors who beat their wives. Nearly 60% said women were to blame for the beatings. Just 51% said the men should be punished. (The New York Times, 10/31/97)

Fact #34: 4 million women and girls are trafficked annually. (United Nations)

Fact #35: An estimated one million children, mostly girls, enter the sex trade each year (UNICEF)

Fact #36: A 2005 World Health Organization study reported that nearly one third of Ethiopian women had been physically forced by a partner to have sex against their will within the 12 months prior to the study. (WHO Multi-country Study on Women’s Health and Domestic Violence Against Women, 2005)

Fact #37: In a study of 475 people in prostitution from five countries (South Africa, Thailand, Turkey, USA, and Zambia):
62% reported having been raped in prostitution.
73% reported having experienced physical assault in prostitution.
92% stated that they wanted to escape prostitution immediately.
(Melissa Farley, Isin Baral, Merab Kiremire, Ufuk Sezgin, “Prostitution in Five Countries: Violence and Posttraumatic Stress Disorder” (1998) Feminism & Psychology 8 (4): 405-426)

Fact #38: The most common act of violence against women is being slapped—an experience reported by 9% of women in Japan and 52% in provincial Peru. Rates of sexual abuse also varies greatly around the world—with partner rape being reported by 6% of women from Serbia and Montenegro, 46% of women from provincial Bangladesh, and 59% of women in Ethiopia. (WHO Multi-country Study on Women’s Health and Domestic Violence Against Women, 2005)

Fact #39: So-called “honour killings” take the lives of thousands of young women every year, mainly in North Africa, Western Asia and parts of South Asia. (UNFPA)

Fact #40: The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan reported that 2002 saw a 25% increase in “honor killings” of women, with 461 women murdered by family members in 2002, in 2 provinces (Sindh and Punjab) alone. (Pakistan Human Rights Commission, 2002)

Fact #41: More than 90 million African women and girls are victims of female circumcision or other forms of genital mutilation. (Heise: 1994)

Fact #42: In eastern and souther Africa, 17 to 22% of girls aged 15 to 19 are HIV-positive, compared to 3 to 7% of boys of similar age. This pattern—seen in many other regions of the world—is evidence that girls are being infected with HIV by a much older cohort of men. (UNICEF/UNAIDS 2007)

Fact #43: : A 2005 study reported that 7% of partnered Canadian women experienced violence at the hands of a spouse between 1999 and 2004. Of these battered women, nearly one-quarter (23%) reported being beaten, choked, or threatened with a knife or gun. (Family Violence in Canada: A Statistical Profile, 2005)

Fact #44: In Zimbabwe, domestic violence accounts for more than 60% of murder cases that go through the high court in Harare. (ZWRCN)

Fact #45: a study in Zaria, Nigeria found that 16 percent of hospital patients treated for sexually transmitted infections were younger than 5. (UNFPA)


The following are a selection of other web sites at which to find and verify violence against women statistics:

World Health Organization: Gender Based Violence


88 Responses

  1. This rant is the result of Radio Interviews with conservative women and a few men that I dared to ask about women’s issues!

    I was very disappointed by Team Sarah and asamom.org radio guests regarding their lack of passion on women’s/girls issues.

    First they claim ALL our children are precious gifts from God but then they seem to think the real issues that actually affect our female children are a taboo subject not to be discussed by proper ladies! I might as well of have used the foul words ‘MOTHER FUCKER’ in place of ‘violence against women!’

    They all seem to think these are radical lib women’s issues!

    I am extremely frustrated with conservative women when it comes to discussing what really needs done and it becomes very apparent – conservative women are thwarting all efforts to move us ahead. Don’t they think their little girls can be taken from a bus stop? Don’t they think their daughters can be pulled from their beds some night in their sleep = or from a store?
    Don’t they think Sarah Palin’s daughter was raised right?

    Do they really think only trailer trash boys have hormones? Why is talking about the facts like talking dirty? I didn’t swear- I told the truth – the words aren’t dirty – the facts are! Hiding from them won’t change the facts! And ignoring them will not make them go away or protect their daughters or teach their sons.

    I told my 21 year old what happened to that 15 year old in CA and we discussed what should have been done together. We said if it was too dangerous to make the call with peers around – to leave and call 911 but call ASAP!

    The women from these conservative groups fought me and chose instead to change the subject – they refused to discuss what we as women need to do to stand together and change things! In my opinion- they think they are better then Lbs they thinks Lbs are the problems and deserve what they get!

    I can tell you that Lbs are at least partially at fault for cutting off your sisters with a falsehood. Just how many Libs are Gay or have had an abortion? The percentage is so minute that it is amazing that you are allowing the entire nation to pigeon hole approximately 23% of the population of this country and turn a minimum of 50% of your sisters and a minimum of 70 % of the entire population against you out of fear for what you are not. That is assuming 70% of the population is either /or homophobic or anti prochoice.

    Libs think Conservative women have their heads up their asses and are the problem and do nothing to help matters and so women deserve what they get.

    I can clearly see both are right- we damned well better start working together so all of us are strong and smart enough to change things for all our daughters.

    Harriet Tubman was right so many more could be freed but – neither side knows just how many of them are still slaves.

  2. Whew! Thanks for taking them all on BJ and writing what a lot of us are thinking.

    I felt the same way last Thursday evening after a King County (WA) domestic violence coalition event in Seattle. “You didn’t get help at our DV shelter? Too bad. . .so sad. . .wanna make a donation to us?”

    I am so damned tired of the DV coaltiions keeping their mouths shut during October. Where’s the color purple? And, I’m really tired of them using our dead bodies as a fund raising opportunity.

    BTW, have you seen RepublicansforRape.org?

    And, do you know about Mary J. Blige’s new center for women in Yonkers, NY?

    Do I dare send you into the stratosphere by pointing out that President Obama was opposed to Sen. Al Franken’s amendment to keep folks like Halliburton from getting defense contracts if they won’t let their employees sue for getting gang-raped by fellow employees? (see my post today)

    • not to at all disagree with you thoughts here but I thought you might be suprised to know that 40% of women ages 40 to 55 have had abortions, though the % seems to be going down for younger women ( 28% if you include younger women). Here is a link to women who identify as lesbian or bi
      .http://lesbianlife.about.com/od/lesbiansex/a/SameSexBehavior.htm depending on what statistic you look at it is 4% or 11%. I would think there is not a lot of overlap in the two groups.

      Still DV and Sexual Assault and lack of equal rights places all women at risk.

      • 40%? Which exposes the pro abortion sales pitch that abortion should be rare a load of crap, no?

        PP’s main source of income is abortion. Like all other businesses they strategize on how to increase sales.

        Another point of contention between the left and right stratgey is how to deal with the numbers. The left is focused on options after the fact, the right is focused on preventing the pregnancy in the first place.

        The left assumes that massive abortion numbers is necessary, the right assumes that the needs for such numbers is preventable.

        The answer must be found in questioning the causes that for the left make unconstrained abortions imperative.

        The left presumes said risky behaviors as “normal,” the right presumes that women can and should exercise more self contral as a matter of self preservation.


  3. There are are several points brought up, I will however, start with the women vs. women question BJ brings up.

    The question can’t be addressed in vacuum, the status quo today is the product of a long and intense cultural shift, pre sexual revolution/feminism and post.

    With new birth control technology, the “free love” generation, the rise of “wimmens’ libbers,” (said at me between clenched teeth), the transition from our mothers’ and grandmothers’ lives to the changed modern women’s lives has been manifest.

    IN their zeal to create “equality” groups such as NOW interpreted it as “women can do anything men do, but better.”

    There was a component of a new war declared between the sexes that at the same time enticed women with “new found freedoms” to declare war on their OWN sex.

    The camps split in two.

    I believe the majority went with the “equal pay for equal work,” part but the NOW “types” went progressive and the push to prove equality by endorcing the most base male behaviors for women.

    Or, the “biology is destiny” camp vs. the “biology is not destiny, camp.”

    Few here would argue that mainstream media, education, laws, have become more and more liberal.

    The same paradiagms that worked against the “traditional/conservative” leaning public, that “silent majority” in politics also worked against and sought to intrude on their home values which remained pre-60’s sexual revolution.

    Ok, long way around saying this: Conservative and even moderate women have never bought into the extremist positions vis a vis women, that the official “womens’ movement” as led by NOW did.

    For each assertion from NOW as with abortion and gay marriage, cons/mod viewed these changes as COUNTER to womens’ best interest.

    BOTH SIDE ARE HORRIFIED at the victimization of women.

    The base difference is in strategy, the more liberal go along with the progressives’ new “freedoms,” the conservatives see these “freedoms” not as victories but as defeats and get ANGRY at their sisters for making theirs and their daughters … and even their sons’ lives more difficult and undignified.

    More, because the progressives successes in getting the cutlrual mores and taboos eliminated or diminished, the consrvatives blame their liberal sisters for creating the circumstances that make it hard to protect themselves and their children, male and female.

    Ok, get mad at me. But I personally blame NOW and progressives who, in the name of speaking FOR women have actually contributed to the escalation of VAW.

    How? Because biology IS destiny and the progressive POV has, by their extreme positions opened the way for not just the mainstreaming of sexual objectification and the perpetuation of chattel status of women, but a cultural endorcement and approval.

    ie: For a woman, what exactly is the net difference or progress made between a father exacting compensaton from a man to marry his daughter and a lap dancer exacting compensation? That the lap dancer receives it?

    Both acts are demeaning, misogynistic and render females as lesser. Both put men in charge of her body and mind for a specific time. Both require her to put her own preferences and self interest AND self respect second to a man’s dictates.

    Yet the progressives call such endeavors “careers,” when the same basic chattel, objectfication and underclass status remains. Only this time, with progressives approval and encouragement, she does so to herself?

    There is much more to it. But the bottom line is that those who have fought the gallent fight for the betterment of women, the TRUE equality of women and gone along with the progressives’ REGRESSIVE changes are I think, waking up to the fact that they have been working against their own goals.

    More to follow.

  4. Okay. Let’s tackle it. Abortion.

    In 1972, I was for abortion, I’m trying to remember of Jersey had a referendum, had it, I would have voted for.

    I was a rabid convert to “biology is not destiny.” I was the prototypical “womens’ libber,” outspoken and would not countenance any intrusion by work or system over my rights, my body, my life.

    And I was rabidly pro abortion. I was adament, I was never having kids, if I ended up pregnant I would abort, the man I married agreed that we would have no kids else I would not have married him.

    Then came the moment I realized I was pregnant. WHOOOSH! In that moment, to my shock, every molecule within me became mama bear in protection of my child and every prior, deep held belief about abortion, “My body is MINE!” parasitic, have no right to live intruder within my body, vanished.

    In a moment, I went from “biology is not destiny” to biology sure as hell IS destiny.

    In that moment, with the realization that my child was life AND MINE, I went from rabid pro-abortion to virulently pro life.

    This is a fundamental disagreement between most conservative, even moderate women and progressive.

    Media, acadamia, “special interest” groups drive home the anecdotal reasons, like no more back room abortion deaths. And victims of incest and rape should have a choice. This type of rationalization is mainstreamed by progressive gov’t, media, acadamia, etc.

    BUT AS the polls of late portray, 70% conservative and moderate have been shut out, discounted, mischaracterized in the faux dichotomy.

    And the minority progressives have their way, dictating from:

    the initial 1st trimester only to partial birth abortion (murder of a viable baby),

    from parental consent to none, minors not allowed to cross state lines to yes they are,

    from out of pocket payment for abortion to state paid with our dissenting taxes paying,

    from “safe and rare” to birth control, 50 million in 40 years,

    from parental control of children to no parental rights to restrict their childrens’ sex lives to the point of birth control and now day after pills being given our kids without their knowledge,

    from routine statutory rape prosecutions to stats that say 6 or 7 out of 10 minor girls are impregnated by men 6 or more years older … no prosecutions, the state pays for the abortions but not any prosecutions, IOW, ENABLING rapists and paying for their crimes,

    from the anecdotal stories to justify but NO MEDIA or NOW disclosures of the carnage to our daughters’ bodies such as

    At least a 30% higher risk of breast cancer, increased with each subsequent abortion,


    An elevated risk of infertility:

    An increased mortality rate, suicide, accidents,natural causes:



    The above are the truths that conservatives hold. They see abortion as an assault on women, not a “freedom.”

    They don’t see any valid choice to go against biology is destiny. They see abortion as ONE MORE WAY MEN CAN VICTIMIZE WOMEN AND MAKE WOMEN PAY THE PRICE.

    Abortion and the cultural mores, the dilution of morality has done nothing for women. Serial hook ups, even serial monogamy offers no long term security for women or their children. We are not better off than our mothers were and our daughters will not be better off OR ANY CLOSER TO EQUALS as we.

    From the conservative POV, the result of the progressives’ womens’ movement, starting with abortion but with a whole ‘nother laundry list of assaults on womens’ dignity AND RIGHTS is a life of hardship and economic entrapment for women.

    • I realize there are strong feelings on both sides of this issue however, TMU has a strict rule that we absolutely eill NOT takes sides nor preach on this issue!
      God in his/her wisdom gave humankind Free Choice and I have no intention of taking that away.

      TMU is the one place all women can come and feel safe to have their choice without having to defend it.
      If I allow either side to present a case for or against choice I do myself a disservice. I founded TMU for the express purpose of uniting women on those issues for which we can agree and to allow either side to make the other uncomfortable here defeats my purpose.

      In that spirit – I will ask that the discussion of abortion as applies to chice be kept to personal one on one discussions rather than on the blog or in the chat room .

      I touch on it only in the most non personal terms in order to show that this should never be the one issue or overriding issue for women nor should it define women. The devisivness of the issue prevents us from uniting and never leads to any solutions.

      We all come to our own solutions in our own way – let us be respectful of each others rights at TMU on this very personal issue for the sake of God given freedom of choice.

      • I apologize, did not know I was breaking rules.

        I question whether there can be unity accomplished, it is one of if not the most divisive issue among women.

        It’s hard to ignore the elephant in the room and unless there can be at least some acknowledgement on both sides of the other POV, I don’t see how there can ever be resolution enough to combine forces.


        • No problem- I also question if unity can ever be accomplished but I am peddling as fast as I can and if I can keep that one discussion off the table – then maybe just maybe – I can keep women talking to each other. God love us – if only we would just love one another and talk about those things we can agree on instead of bashing the hell out of one another over the few things we don’t agree on! Hell men don’t agree on everything but they can go golf and go drinking and a bunch of things without killing each other – why can’t we? I will- probably die trying but I try I will. I bet the suffragists did not agree on all things but they agreed on the vote!

          BettyJean Kling M.S, M. Ed Founder: The Majority United http://www.TheMajorityUnited.com http://www.FreeMeNow.wordpress BTR. The Majority United Radio Founder: Free US Now- “A victim’s first scream is for help; a victim’s second scream is for justice.” – Coral Anika Theill

    • I am one of those women that having experienced the death of my mother as a child from pre-menopausal breast cancer has followed the literature and research closely. My theory about my mother was always that she was either exposed to DDT at lot on the farm in Nebraska or the fact that she had seven children (including one that died shortly after birth) and did not breast feed any of them. I would like to know whether or not in the fifies and early 60s women were given hormones like DES in order to supress milk production.

      I lost my first child shortly after her birth and before I had regained consciousness was given DES. These well-intended medical professionals gave me this powerful hormone thinking that since my baby hadn’t survived I would surely want to have lactation supressed. With my family history they were dead wrong. I had decided that even ordinary birth control pills were not worth the risk. I say this not to argue with the current belief that there is a minimal risk but to illustrate that we are still looking for all the possible confounding factors that might be involved in any individual woman developing breast cancer.
      Though my three sisters and myself were considered extremely high risk at the time of my mother’s diagnosis, none of us have developed any cancer at all. We all breastfed. Three of us had our first child before the age of 23.
      The American Cancer Society would disagree with the above mentioned link between abortion and risk of breast cancer.

      If women could unite and work together instead of forever isolating ourselves within like-thinking cells we might be able to get to the truth about our health issues. Perhaps if we knew more about women’s health issues msplaceddemocrat would have had a better outcome and been here to rejoice in the exposure of ACORN. Health care “reform” could be about health rather than the evilness of the insurance companies or the government.

      Those woho might be interested in working to find the truth about breast cancer might want to volunteer for the Army of Women. Please check them out at armyofwomen.org

      • I remember being offered the milk suppression stuff but had to sign a disclaimer because it might cause cancer. I didn’t BTW.

        So Ms, I think there is something to it.

        (Today, you could have brought a lawsuit for giving you without concent. Am so sorry about your baby.)

        I agree about the b’control pills as well, I remember when they first came out they made women sign similar disclaimers.

        It would seem logical to me, that which seems logical to you, that screwing around with hormones is part and parcel of the rise in the rates of breast cancer.

        Our generation and even our mothers it seems were the gunea pigs. (sp). Now with this new vaccaination against ?cervial? cancer, it appears our daughters and g’daughters, too.

        I remember coming home as a young woman, my mother sat me down at the table to “have a conversation” with me. It seems there was some drug given to mothers who had trouble keeping from miscarrying, during the late 40’s, early 50’s.

        It turned out that the “privates” of boys of the mothers who took this drug never matured and remained “small,” and the girls had a much higher risk of developing vervical cancer as young women.

        It had never occured to me to ask but my mother made it a point to tell me that she ‘never took ANYTHING of the sort, ” while she was pregnant with me.

        Of course, she drank and smoked thru her pregnancy. 🙂

        My cousin in law developed an aggressive breast cancer while pregnant w/her second child.

        She was the only one of us who had taken BC pills and we wondered if there was a connection.

        It surprised me (was maybe 18 at the time) that it would happen when she got pregnant but my older sister explained that w/pregnancy, hormones go wild and sometimes a bit too wild and grow into cancer.

        It made sense since BC pills were designed to fool your body into being pregnant, our generation with the strong dosages those days had our bodies on a continual chemical overload.

        I do not expect nor trust the AMA to tell the truth always, they have a definite liberal political bent, their last “out” was to endorse this health care bill. When they revised the milleniums old Hippocratic Oath to accomodate mass murder and euthanasia, that was the end for me insofar as regard or faith in them.

        For many issues it is up to us to ferret out the truth. The sytem has a penchant for systemic lying.

        • If I wanted to sue anyone I certainly could have sued the hospital that immediatly fired the Doctor on duty in the emergency room that night. I think back in those we actually had relationships with our health care providers and were less likely to sue. Funny thing about the DES.. current evidence shows that allowing the engorgement that follows the loss of a child might contribute to breast cancer. Maybe I should sue the formula manufacturers that encouraged women to be modern and not breastfeed. Maybe my mother didn’t get DES.
          I attached a link above from the American Cancer Society that claims that there is no increase in breast cancer following abortion. I suspect that as with all so-called information based on stastics these days, neither of us can be certain of our sources.

          Just imagine how much we could accomplish for all women if we worked together. For instance if conservative and liberal women would venture outside their world view for a minute we might be able to consider the possibility that anytime a pregnancy doesn’t result in a live birth and milk is produced, engorgement of the breasts should be supressed if possible.Perhaps we could look at a possible increase in the risk as a consequence of young women having their first child at a later age. Perhaps we coul look for the truth instead of evidence that supports our world view.

          • Venturing outside the worldview is easier said than done.

            The worldview does happen in a vaccuum, esp. at our age, old bats like us have experience enough to no longer be ideological as much as logical and pragmatic.

            Since no two people have the same experiences aka life lessons and even when they do, their conclusions can radically differ, total agreement on even which of the two bananas in the produce section is best may well differ.

            That said, we need to come to our conclusions based on real facts, never feelings, ideology or even convenience.

            And once the hard, cold facts are revealed, we must have the courage and intellectual hoesty to adjust our “worldview.”

            Water stagnates when it doesn’t move. So do minds. Our lives must remain the quest for knowledge and truth til we take our last breaths.

          • Just wanted to post the facts about DES and breast cancer risk as per the American Cancer Society.


  5. So, bj, aren’t ya glad you invited me into the conversation?? lol

  6. That’s an interesting intellectual exercise, the bib, but it ignores BJ’s central premise:

    Where IS the women’s movement ~ where ARE women ~ protesting and demanding an end to violence against women?

    And, it ignores why Elizabeth Cady Stanton started the women’s movement in the first place: to end violence against women. It is an issue that has never been addressed. And, quite frankly, I’m a little tired of feminist intellectuals obfuscating the pervasive issue of violence against women with their rhetoric.

    I’m sorry if you find this offensive, but peace in the world starts at home. Men aren’t going to bring that peace about. It will be up to us women. And, we need to start at home.

    Six times more women experience domestic violence than breast cancer, but during October ~ the month designated to highlight both issues ~ the world is covered in pink. Where’s the color purple?

    Where IS the color purple???

    • I am not offended, I love a good debate, tact is not my strong suit and I am a B’klyn born, Sicilian Scorpio, ergo, quite thick skinned.

      It’s not personalities when we debate, it must be kept intellectual and so I do not take offence, I believe it not to be personal attack simply possible disagreement or more likely, not at the point of understanding the other pov. This doesn’t mean we must end up agreeing but the inroads will be made thru understanding, at least.

      Long way to say, no offense taken and I hope the road runs two ways. 🙂

      To answer the central premise, the womens’ movement for the majority of American women is not the agenda as set by NOW.

      Emphatically, NOW does NOT speak for MOST women. Most women find NOW a misogynist organization and extremely counterproductive to womens’ needs and benefit.

      And so, effectively cut off by the minority sector but the sector who GETS the press, gov’t legislation and sucesses in setting the standards for all, conservative women retreat into a seige mentality, circle the wagons and keep their own society and agenda in protection of themselves and their children.

      Much negative propaganda about them is in teh mainstream, again by the “forces” who have control of policy and media aimed at discrediting conservative women.

      Currently, these “forces” have their sights on and using the same strategy of personal destruction, mischaracterization toward the peoples’ movement characterizing us as comprised of (coincidence?) right wing nuts, evangelicals (spit, spit) and dangerous militants, altogether nutty and deserving of being marginalized. Like the “75,000” who showed up in DC, our numbers are deliberately understated.

      As with the WTP movement, we ARE legion.

      And so presuming you are part of the WTP movement, you can see how this propaganda and marginalization, is now directed at silencing and attacking you.

      Such left wing strategy has long been directed at conservative women, old news, old hat and expected on the conservative side within the WTP movement.

      So the short answer to your query is that conservative women have LONG been aware of VAW and LONG been in their own if poltically and NOW non-sanctioned strategy of fighting it.

      Their methods and harder by day to do,

      Street wise caution in their daily business, for themselves, their children.

      Controlling what their kids are exposed to, in media and culture, including the subliminal messages in entertainment, mags, etc., aimed at their children that delivers approvalof the basist personal behavior, dress ergo, personal standards and expectations therein.

      IOW, G movies, no Cosmo mags, no MTV, etc.

      They supervise actively their children, monitor their friends, council them on peer pressure and inculcate old time personal values.

      A lot of what they do is undoing, the negative and destructive messages that kids learn in school, they fight their own individual school systems on such as the sex ed programs that pretend to inform but actually encourage “loose” behavior.

      They fight the liberal system and the self destructive unhealthy non-value agenda the liberals set on a daily basis.

      Ergo, they fight NOW’s agenda finding NOW hugely destructive to their own goals, raising both girls and boys with healthy self images, self respect and mostly encourage their kids to set higher goals serial sex and lap dancing or paying a lap dancer because sex and the resultant environment IS ONE that promotes the hosility and violence against women AND their children, male and female that routinely occurs today .

      And so, the womens’ movement IS alive and well in the USA, the two factions however at cross purposes, the goals set by both sides dramatically opposed.

      To rcognize only the NOW agenda or to claim that the mainstream does NOT care about the womens’ movement or VAW is in error.

      The REAL womens’ movement does not recognize NOW. They do what they can in a totally hostile enviroment and society who sets the cultural mores at the lowest possible level that they regard as DIRECTED at themselves and their children and at the same time blames the victims they create for “not being in the game.”

    • I agree that actual violence and living with the constant threat of violence is more harmful to women and children than breast cancer. Perhaps we could charge those who engage in it more for their health insurance like the obesity and smoking tax…How come the alcohol that is so often a part of that violence escaped consideration?

  7. Anne Caroline, here is link to one of those Gawd awful right wing evangelical groups whom I suspect you would be interested on their take on the violence against Islamic women.


    And the liberal assault on parental rights:



    FTR, the conservative viewpoint is that VAW is based in the “reeducation” of our young and so intertwined that one can not be considered without the other.

    Protect the children is synonomous with protect parents’ rights and who are the nurturers but women.

    It is part and parcel with how conservatives view their role in securing protections, rights and freedoms, for themselves and their kids.

    • The bib, I give up. Actually, I’m NOT interested in the links you provided. Again, it appears to me that you are doing what feminists have done for far too long ~ raising all kinds of pet peripheral, intellectual agendas to obfuscate the central issue of BJ’s post ~ VAW.

      BJ, there’s been a heavy, dark cloud raining down on me and those I dearly love. Way, way, way too many deaths back-to-back. The only thing I can say is that God must be in serious need of angels because a whole lot of wonderful people have departed this earth in the last couple of weeks. It boggles my mind.

      And, now we’ve got the tropical storms to compound the shizza.

      I haven’t forgotten about your show, and I’m getting ready to take a bold step toward another big guest. She’s written the best survivor’s memoir I’ve read.

      Sending hugs,

      • I addressed it, maybe in too roundabout a way.

        I will be clear and precise.

        NOW suborns all things that creates, perpetrates and perpetuates the hostile environment, objectification and violence against women AND children presently in our culture.

        I am sorry for your losses. My sincere condolences.

      • Caroline, I have been missing you and thinking about you . I knew something was wrong! I am so so so sorry for your losses. Love and kisses my dear friend.
        We know what we are going through- on that level don’t we. I do hope things are going well with the homestead situation.

        Send email- I have missed you.

  8. Along the same lines, anyone besides me notice something incredible wrong about the resolution in this story? Copyrighted so please, follow the link:


    “Plea deal in abortion scuffle …”

  9. I wish our children were as easily led by their parents instructions as they are by what they see- hear and are subjected to ! Let’s get real! 24/7 verses around the supper table and a few hours on the weekend? How well did you all listen to your parents? You never snuck out? You never did anything your parents told you not to do?
    Gimme a break! You always agreed with your parents?
    OK – you got a bridge you wanna sell me cheap too?

    I suppose you expect us to believe every kid who makes a mistake does so because they have bad parenting? God help you if your kid aint perfect!
    That is really too damned much to lay on any oarents- they are inundated in school and at play and spen more time with strangers then parents during school year so please save me the hearts and flowers.

    • No hearts and flowers, LOTS OF UNMITIGATED WRATH.

      I was no angel. Yes I snuck out. SAme for two of my three kids. BUT I feel it is every parents obligation to set the limits, not them or their friends or their friends’ more obliging parents.

      We all need to find a way, there is no easy way but it is obligatory. Parents raise children, children do not raise themselves.

      All I can say is what worked for my mother with me and for me with my own, that is in effect the words “Non-negotiable.”

      I knew what line I dared not cross, so did my kids.

      And while they were quite capable of mischeif, they knew that whatever the system might do to them should they get caught, it would be easy compared to the unfair, exacting retribution and punishment theyd get at home.

      It’s not hearts and flowers, it’s a freaking war zone, made harder by those who insist kids should be given the a to z instructions on how to avoid personal responsibility, dignity and self respect.

      MAke fun of the conservatives’ way all you want. The world they raise their kids in is not of their making.

      They ar monkeys in the middle, at war with both their kids and the world their kids live in.

      They have one thing in common though, that is very disciplined parenting. There is little to no room for permissiveness. On your kids like red on tomatoes.

      And btw, I seldom agreed with my mother growing up. My father worked 3 jobs and so was mostly absent.

      I did not like my mother much, nothing to do with her balls to the wall disipline tactics.

      But the punishment for infractions was NEVER FAIR, was ALWAYS severe and it was that more than anything that kept me in line. I remember thinking that I’d rather get hit than “hit” with the interminable loss of privileges going out.

      It’s the way I raised my own, albeit with more tenderness, emotional support and demonstrative love.

      I made it a practice NEVER to say “No” when I could say “Yes” but when I said “No,” I meant it. By toddlers they knew not to go thru the whiney routine, it didn’t work.

      Served me well when they were rotten teens.And I never bought into this newspeak crap that teenagers have a right to privacy. I have barged thru locked doors and knocked them right off the hinges when the eyes in the back of my head showed me something rotten, sneaky and or self destructive was happening behind that locked door.

      But when it comes to child rearing, the roles must be clearly defined: “Because I said so,” works fine.

      Ask my kids what Rule #1 is: “I will know where you are every moment of the day or your life is not worth living.” And they knew I meant it. Ask my son what he got for his 16th b’day present. 3 months in the house, no tv, no telephone, no video games, no stereo. All the books he wanted. Why? Because I rec’d a call from school that day, he cut lunch. His friends treated him to McDonald’s for his b’day. He got caught. And he was busted. NO NEGOTIATION.

      Skinner works in young child rearing, by adolescence, Maslow should be firmly inculcated. IMO

      “There’s nothing like a relationship based on fear.” Lucy to Charlie Brown.

      • Not surprisingly Bib. my kids rarely if ever heard the word ‘No.” I was for most of their lives a single parent. I choose to not stay in a physically violent relationship with an alcoholic. I left the first time he hit me and threatened to kill me. I wanted to make sure my kids could make good decisions since I didn’t know if I would always be there to tell them ‘No.”
        So far they seem to be doing OK. All have at least a 4 year degree and are engaged in work they enjoy. So far there are no drug/alcohol probelms or unintended pregnancies. I always say so far because they started out with three strikes against them. 1. single parent from a dysfunctional family 2. witnessed DV 3. alcoholism.

        I really don’t know how I managed to be so lucky but they weren’t even bratty as teenagers. Two things I did do was TURN OFF the TV and had a book called Miss Manners Guide to Raising Perfect Children. Perhaps the luckiest thing for me is having been involved with the women who helped me start a rape crisis center before I had the kids. They let me know that since I was raise in an abusive family (mom had cancer and dad was an alcoholic) my kids were at risk. Instead of relying on “instinct’ and repeating my parents mistakes, I studied those parents I respected and actually took classes. Now if none of them marry an abusive or alcoholic man,I will relax.

        • Sympatico, ms. Without going into detail, I was lucky enough to have the presence of mind AS a kid and adolecent to work it thru.

          I too divorced my kids’ father, for cause.

          I taught my children the same lesson I taught myself as I grew up. When they asked why an adult (often, their father) said or did such a hurtful or otherwise bad thing to them, I always said:

          “When someone hurts you and you can say honestly, you did nothing to deserve it, then KNOW that the problem is with that person, NOT with you.”

          And I always followed it up with a version of, “It’s a hard thing to have to learn when you’re just a kid but might as well learn young. EVEN A BAD EXAMPLE IS A GOOD EXAMPLE OF HOW NOT TO BE. And make it a point to remember how you are feeling now, so you don’t make others feel badly and especially, when you grow up, you don’t do it to your own kids.”

          There is such a thing as generational repetition. Can’t deny it, it happens more than not.

          But there is ALSO such a thing as personal choice. We all have our demons. We all fight our demons. We all have our inner child pushing to break free. How much easier it would be if we let that inner child supply our crutch for life, always someone else to blame, always an excuse for failure?


          And so my friend, do not consider it luck that your kids turned out ok. It was you. You made the difference. First by choosing to take the high road, then leading by example. Give your self an atta boy, right now, from me. :-)))

          • My hat’s off MsBehaved,
            that is no small accomplishment. You are hope to all the women who are afraid to do what you’ve done. Thank you 🙂

          • I thank you for your kind words but my point was that I raised my kids very differently. I noticed positive behavior and pretty much ignored negative behavior with the bounds of safety (typical earth/mother hippie).
            The older women friends that were my mentoring parents were mostly liberal social workers and most definately early feminists.

            P.S. I avoided public schools as much as possible and the treat they got when we were shopping was a book from the used book store next to the supermarket.

  10. FWIW, ms, I too think some of the breast cancer increase is environmental, be it chemicals in our water, on our food, in our surrounding.

    However, breast cancer has, since 1972, doubled. Chalk that up to coincidence until you look at the breast cancer rates in young women which have skyrocketed over the past 50 years.

    Until then, breast cancer was pretty rare in the under 40’s, even the under 50’s and 60’s.

    The increase in breast cancer parrellels the increase in abortion in the same time period. More troubling is the increase in breast cancer in the 20 somethings has become much more commonplace.

    And so, American Cancer Society, American medical Association notwithstanding, there are correlations that can be found when you look at stats that are published separate then compare them side by side.

    No, you will NEVER find a published study from any “system” archives.

    But one can not ignore the MDs and gynecologists who are the ones who report these numbers and are stymied by the establishment from disclosing.

    As I have said here before, that media and “the system” lies by commision and ommission is NOT news to those of us from the right.

    It is a new concept and even awakening, to the left.



    You might want to tool around in here to get another perpspective.


    • Read my latest post-“Ladies first…” the new panel is deciding that we do not need mammograms as often- so we will be dying. So much for uniting the majority- they will be killing the majority off and soon we will not be the majority anyway.

      BettyJean Kling M.S, M. Ed Founder: The Majority United http://www.TheMajorityUnited.com http://www.FreeMeNow.wordpress BTR. The Majority United Radio Founder: Free US Now- “A victim’s first scream is for help; a victim’s second scream is for justice.” – Coral Anika Theill

  11. BJ,

    For as long as there has been the women’s movement, conservative women have given their time to encourage responsible behavior, which is the highest form of independence, and have been very active politically regarding women’s issues, and that all important message is undermined by women “whinning” about their rights to live a debauched life, kill their babies, & motherhood is slavery etc.

    Just because women like Lucretia Mott, Susan Anthony, Katherine Bushnell and other conservative women in the suffrage movement weren’t out burning their bras doesn’t mean they didn’t suffer, sacrifice and work hard. There are many conservative women today who are very much making a difference in their efforts of trying to prevent DV through education and other means.

    Domestic violence is one of many issues, perhaps your guest is advancing the equality of women in other areas. To not respect these women who have been in the trenches, having to overcome gender barriers, is as you say “women against women” and the lack of respect shown to what they have suffered and have had to overcome will definitely hinder you from working with and uniting with them. To say that everyone has to be involved with domestic violence is like saying everyone has to be a doctor OR they don’t care about human life. That’s nonsense.

    • I am somehow confused or you are – did I really say that DV is the only issue? Indeed I fully agree it is one of many issues. I was – I think — pointing out how VAW is the one issue that affects 100% of women from all sides and therefore deserves more attention because of its seriousness and the epic proportions it has reached into all our lives and that of our children and how all women can unite behind this one issue regardless of party- religion or any other factor.

      To think that I insulted you or any other woman by bringing it up is beyond ridiculous! If you actually think this has not reached epidemic proportions and merits our serious considerations and that of every women- I am stunned however – you are entitled to your opinion – I certainly had my say!

      BettyJean Kling M.S, M. Ed Founder: The Majority United http://www.TheMajorityUnited.com http://www.FreeMeNow.wordpress BTR. The Majority United Radio Founder: Free US Now- “A victim’s first scream is for help; a victim’s second scream is for justice.” – Coral Anika Theill

      • BJ, this was such a brilliant post. I was so happy to see you articulate the issue so remarkably well.

        Yet, I’m getting the sense that a whole lot of women would prefer us to keep silent. It feels like we’re getting told to “shut up” in a zillion ways ~ some overt and some covert.

        I take heart this week that some brave women like Halle Berry, Rihanna, Mildred Muhammad, and Mary J. Blige are taking sledge hammers to that wall of silence.

        Sending hugs,

        • Giving credit to conservative women who’ve labored for women’s rights, when they’re disparaged by people who claim they’re thwarting all efforts, is not telling someone to shut up overt or covert.

          • Yes – you are right- it was not my intent to disparage all conservative women. I am in more trouble with liberal women than I am with conservatives so I am quite surprised that you are on me this way . Obviously – you have not read most of my work I am more conservative than liberal -who knew- ?

            BettyJean Kling M.S, M. Ed Founder: The Majority United http://www.TheMajorityUnited.com http://www.FreeMeNow.wordpress BTR. The Majority United Radio Founder: Free US Now- “A victim’s first scream is for help; a victim’s second scream is for justice.” – Coral Anika Theill

      • No, DV has landed on my doorstep with women, and I don’t mind bringing up the topic myself, knowing and respecting the fact that not everyone I talk to about it is in a position to protest, “this issue” along with the other “many injustices” done against women.

        Respectfully discussing an issue in order to “unite” BJ, is appropriate.

        No, I’m not confused… your words

        “conservative women are thwarting all efforts to move us ahead”

        • Ah yes – but many conservative women are – that does not mean all! I had a conservative guest on the night before that piece- and when I brought up the subject – she recoiled as if – her children would never dress the way kids do today- her husband would never look at a women with lust and no good Christian women would ever be hit. VAW is not an issue to be discussed by conservative women. She as much as said these are liberal women’s issues! I was addressing that debate in that blog piece. I never use absolutes- so if you are quoting me and I did not make it clear that I was tagging the extremes – I apologize- I would have to go back to the piece and if needed clarify myself if necessary- to indicate I did not mean all conservative women. I also stated the tendencies of extreme liberal women and my intent was to grab those not so far to the right or left and encourage them not to fall into the patterns set for them by the extremist from their party or their church but rather use their common sense for the sake of all women.

          That was my intent- obviously- I did not manage to convey that as clearly as I had hoped – my bad!

          BettyJean Kling M.S, M. Ed Founder: The Majority United http://www.TheMajorityUnited.com http://www.FreeMeNow.wordpress BTR. The Majority United Radio Founder: Free US Now- “A victim’s first scream is for help; a victim’s second scream is for justice.” – Coral Anika Theill

          • I have definitely ran into women like that. That type of denial is extremely problematic in helping women and children in DV situations, but there are many conservatives that speak out against it, and sometimes intervening in ways that put their lives in jeopardy.

      • It’s not that conservative women do not clearly see the VAW and children has escalated … and in the jusice system, lost ground regards punitive measures.

        And it’s certainly not that we are not equally outraged.

        We just frame the causes differently.

        As I said above, “NOW suborns all things that creates, perpetrates and perpetuates the hostile environment, objectification and violence against women AND children presently in our culture.”

        NOW does not speak for conservative women. Far from promoting womens’ causes, NOW is a foremost advocate of all parts of our culture that reduces women to commodities and chattel.

        The difference pre now and post NOW is that preNOW, women RECOGNIZED and worked to reverse these trends. Post NOW, women have unwittingly joined the power structure to hold women down.

        Liberal women try to get the power structure to change itself.

        Conservative women actively fight and undermine the power system. Every day.

  12. Diane! Wow! :-)))

    Conservative women know they are often and can as likely be victims of DV and VAW, too.

  13. Bib you’re so right,
    there was a church in my city that had a sort of “underground” safety house for women and children of DV. They would provide food, shelter, financial assistance, job assistance, childcare, help with travel etc..

    • Early in our marriage, my ex picked up the small couch pillow and hit me over the head while he yelled “Do you hear me? Do you her me?”

      I responded by getting my softball bat out of the car and telling him if he ever raised his hands to me again, he’d better not plan on sleeping for the rest of his life.

      Took another 13 years, he pushed me. I called the cops, had him removed. That was that.

      Yes, it can come to conservative women too. I have found that often, weak men are attracted to strong women, who knows, maybe they can “possess” the power? Get it thru osmossis?

      But it is the weak men who are also very likely to raise their hands, me thinks. The macho morons who don’t have the balls to pick on someone their own size.

      “Speak softly and carry a big stick.” ~~~ Theodore Roosevelt.

      Again, I dont think conservative women are in la la land when it comes to VAW. We just see our liberal sisters unwittingly “in bed” with the same forces that suborn the second class citizen status of women and children in our culture.

      Also, conservative women tend to include children in the phrase, our mindset looks at it as a combined fight, VAWAC.

  14. Bib,
    Im so glad you addressed those issues each time they came up! You’re right conservative women are not twiddling their thumbs…. great quote from Roosevelt 🙂

    • We teach by example.

      I had a son who had to learn to respect women. His father was no role model and how could I be if I did not respect myself?

      T.R., fellow Scorpio. If not in the genes, it must be in the stars. 🙂

      Yes, we fight. As our liberal sisters wonder why we are not on board with them, we wonder why they are on board with the very forces of institutional oppression?

      “The right man for the job is a woman.” ~~~ Unknown

      “If you want something said, ask a man. If you want something done, ask a woman.” ~~ Margaret Thatcher

      • According to the book Personal Politics (by Sara Evans) it was conservative God-fearing Southern women that first started the Civil Rights movement. It was Republicans that first introduced and worked for Equal Rights for women.
        According to Ms. Evans the women in the civil rights movement were eventually sent to the kitchen or the bedroom. White women in the movement were pressured to prove they weren’t racist by sleeping with Black men (which did not set well with their Black sisters). Now it appears that you are saying that liberal women hijacked the ERA movement.

        I wanted to share what I think are some interesting abortion stats.

        It is estimated here that, as of 2008, about 28% of U.S. women ages 15-64 have had abortions. This figure has risen from 2.8% in 1973 to 11% in 1980, 19% in 1987, 24% in 1994, and 27% in 2001. In 2008, of women ages 40-55, about 40% have had abortions in their lifetimes. I’m not a math genius but I think that means that younger women are doing more to prevent an unwanted pregnancy. Since I believe that no woman looks forward to having an abortion, this is good news for all of us. If women were able to work together maybe we could make birth control safer and more reliable.
        My personal choice would be that a health care system that can come up with Viagara invent a pill for men. I do see young girls pressured by their baby daddy to have abortions so that they can avoid child support. In this sense, women have been left holding the bag(or baby)., because most birth control is left up to the woman an unintended pregnancy is seen as at best her fault or at worst an effort to trap a man.

        I would add that 40% of abortions a performed on women who identify as Evangelical or Catholic.

        • I am not saying the liberals highjacked the ERA movement as much as I am saying that their methodology and strategy seems designed to keep women second class citizens.

          I think conservative women work for equal rights; their strategy is different.

          I do not see the liberal sisters as the only ones carrying the banner, just the ones who get the most press and with it are “perceived” voice of all women.

          Conservative women do not believe that at all, we have long said that NOW does not speak for us.

          Bottom line, while we all work for the same goals, bj is right in that we ARE at cross purposes.

          Regards your stats, I have known American “Catholics” are right among the “norms” in abortion, divorce, yada yada.

          The short analysis on this, having come from that background is that Catholics, by and large are extremely liberal despite directions from Rome. Michael Moore could be in my family, product of Catholic education as myself, it’s not we are not taught teh sanctity of life, we are taught w/mixed messages.

          I have long said, much to the shock of most Christians, that if Christ walked the earth today, he’d be a socialist. lol

          Evangelicals, now that is a surprise. If true. I have to research it and will let you know but in both cases, it’s one thing to BE Catholic or evangelical and another to come from that background or self describe.

          Simply put, in order to BE a Catholic, one MUST accept all dogma and doctrine; it’s not like Protestantism that you can pick or choose.

          And so, when a Catholic approves of abortion, as far as I’m concerned, they are “claimant” Catholics. By definition.

          I found your stats telling, and actually, supportive of my position re breast cancer. My assertion that breast cancer has doubled overall and more for the under 30’s since Roe v. Wade, by your numbers, holds up well.

          My bottom line though about abortion is that it is not a political issue and should not be in the political dichotomy. It is a moral one where the answers ahould be found in science, not courts.

  15. I just wanted this thread to be visible so we could continue the conversation.

  16. Besides my statements earlier, another reason I entered this discussion is to address the notion, that bib has also rebutted, that “conservative women aren’t doing anything”.

    Millions of unseen women are breaking the silence of VAW and a host of injustices everyday by raising and teaching their sons and daughters to treat women and men as their equal in marriage, work and ministry; some do this under constant attack from family members, “women” and society at large, that see her as doing “nothing”.

    These women are busy WORKING on the solution, (raising their sons and daughters, not leaving them to the NEA or NOW), writing letters to their congressmen, going to rallies when they can.

    Conservative women believe it starts at home (equality in the home, church, society, & gov) (and Christian egalitarians have extra battles to fight),…. the kids are not to be tossed aside for the “cause”, we see attempting to raise them responsibly as a part of the solution, regardless of what path they choose when they’re older. Public policy and personal responsibility are at the core of why these women are busy raising their children and not joining up with people who demean their efforts.

    My own sons may choose to go down the wrong path, but I can’t tell you the number of times the elderly, coaches, parents, other teens, people in my community have thanked me because my sons were respectful to them, and they weren’t use to that. (oh, that type of labor is so small and insignificant, because the son or daughter can turn bad….)

    Those are the millions of unseen, yet very active and engaged conservative women,…. then you have women like Star Parker, and Michelle Malkin who are definitely more visible. There are many many more.

    Though I respect the writers of this blog and you have later stated not “all” conservatives are this way, you guys are not the only ones fighting for women.

    • Agree, Diane. Goes back to the split whether biology is destiny or not.

      Women are designed by nature and biology to be the nurturers. Women on the right recognize this, they do not fight it.

      And so, they seek to inculcate the wholesome values that will serve their sons and daughters throughout their lives.

      Women on the left see us as AWOL because we do not appear in DC appealing for DC to do something.

      They work from the top down. We work from the ground up.

      Unfortunately, our predicates and goals are at odds and so we work at cross puirposes on many levels.

      And while the left blames the right for not joining in with their movement, the right sees the left’s movement as a huge part of the problem in that the left promotes the very culture that makes VAWAC fertile ground.

  17. bib, I think conservative women are both, working from the ground up and political, but because the emphasis is starting from the ground up and not with the gov, there’s a huge disconnect with women who put more emphasis on government solutions.

    Well there’s a loud cry for choice on the left, but when a woman chooses to be more active and involved in the raising of her children, she is scorned as doing nothing.

    These women are attempting to influence future policy makers that will see women with equal value. this is actually one of the toughest jobs I’ve had, especially considering all of the opposing voices from society.

    And to your last point, I agree,…. it’s hard to put out a fire with gasoline.

  18. I see “choice” as one more example of the PC euphemisms so prevelant in our culture.

    As long as you “choose” their way. 🙂

    You are free to “choose” working motherhood but are maligned if you choose stay at home.

    You are free to “choose” abortion but not to say “No” to any comer who wants your bod.

    You are free to “choose” public school irrational rationalizations and revisionist history but not home schooling or a non-living breathing consitution.

    You are free to “choose” to be pro abortion, pro gay marriage, pro left politicians, but not conservative and traditional values.

    You are free to “choose” that your sons and daughters be sexually active and make sure they know how and have the means to “protect” themselves from STD’s and abortion but not to teach them to how and WHY NOT to engage in serial/promiscous/self destructive hooking up because saying “No!” is also a choice.

    Lots of choices, dontcha’ see?

  19. Ms: “….. I noticed positive behavior and pretty much ignored negative behavior with the bounds of safety (typical earth/mother hippie). ….”

    I’d call that active parenting although I noticed both positive and negative. Used Skinner til they were 5, then when they reached a rudimentary “age of reason by 6 and 7, began w/Maslow.

    My line in the sand too was risky and unsafe behaviors. Behavior that could hurt them or others were verboten and non-negotiable. 🙂

    • Now Bib: I think that the point here might be that by labeling people as conservative or liberal we are making all sorts of assumptions that aren;t necessarily true about any individual. Look how much we actually have in common. I kept my children out of public schools and even tried home schooling. I was a stay at home mom though I volunteered at a food coop helped other women with breastfeeding and worked with a human milk bank besides starting a rape crisis center. When I became a single mother, I got a job teaching nursury school at a college (my youngest could attend school and I got free college tuition)l On weekends I provided care for a young boy with cerebral palsy in my home.
      I worked and stayed at home at the same time.

      My point about religion and abortion is that the women who have abortions aren’t necessarily only the women’s libbers. I have to say the percentages surprised me as I know of only three women who have ever had abortions.One of which now has 5 children and is an Evangelical Christian.

      The Catholic Church certainly does not see women as equal in the ministry. Just ask my cousin the nun who can’t be a priest.

      Remember that BJ is the woman that when returning from the Dem convention in Denver, turned around and went to the Republican one because of the treatment of Sarah Palin. We were very upset to hear other women imply that there was something wrong with her because she chose to have a child with Down’s Syndrome..I tried very hard to alert to the Sarah Palin is a cunt tee-shirts pictured on Obama’s website.
      BJ and I actually met through our mutual disgust with the treatment of women of both parties by the media.

      • “The Catholic Church certainly does not see women as equal in the ministry. Just ask my cousin the nun who can’t be a priest”

        Unfortunately, this will be an on going battle in every aspect of life, not just the Catholic Church, and fortunately there will be women and men within who will fight these battles. They might not be visible to women on the left, but thank goodness they’re there :).

  20. Oh no, “choice” is a good word 🙂
    “hope” and “change” might be on the endangered list for redefinition as well….

  21. “Now bib” ….. lol, that made me chuckle.

    FWIW, I do not see you or bj as liberal, you may have been once but certainly, not anymore.

    I see you as intellectually honest all the way.

    Regards women in the ministry, outsiders may consider it unequal because women can’t be priests but then, priests can’t be nuns and so, there is a separate but equal bent.

    Women are CERTAINLY NOT precluded from ministry, if that we true, no one ever told Mother Theresa. Her whole LIFE was ministry.

    Again, it goes back to acceptance of biology being destiny or not. No matter how some may protest, mother nature built certain roles into our physical make up, physically and hormonally.

    And it’s not a horror to note that women are better at some things than men and vice versa.

    Propagation of the species is the most primitive “built in” of mother nature’s design, until men can have babies then there can be no “head to head” (or genital to genital, reproductive to reproductive) equality only rational equivocation of gender roles.

    But we can not fight nature, whether we identify with right or left.

    We ARE WOMEN! We are AS GOOD as men in ALL things, not as good at some things, better than men at other things.

    That’s the reality. And that conviction was not lost on you either methinks, because much of your own personal self worth and satisfaction is built in and around your own enjoyment, success and history of living up to your gender specific, inherent instinct as mother.

    As far as I am concerned personally, no matter what success I have acheived or can acheive in this life, even it if were to be POTUS, my highest and best work will always have the job title called “Mother.”

    Lastly, I myself have been calling for “Tossing them all” for nigh on 20 years now, since Bush 1., actually.

    The key is to differentiate the semantics, liberal and conservative do not (anymore or for a very long time if ever i our liftimes), translate into Dem and GOP.

    They are four distinctly different mindsets, imo.

  22. Not really an outsider about the Catholics. My cousin is actually one of those agitated nuns…

    • One of my nun cousins is as well. No surprise to you I’m sure that when she and I discuss, I disagree w/her as well.

      She took the vow, no shotgun wedding, either live up or leave.

      The institution has not changed in 2,000 years. You don’t join up to change it.

      If you want to be a priest then don’t be a nun. Fighting Rome is harder than fighting city hall. 🙂

    • re Diane’s “Unfortunately, this will be an on going battle in every aspect of life, not just the Catholic Church, and fortunately there will be women and men within who will fight these battles. They might not be visible to women on the left, but thank goodness they’re there :). ”

      Different doesn’t automatically trasnfer to unequal and you can not acheive equality by insisting there is no difference.

      To do so is to insist that unrinals be outlawed because women can’t use them. 🙂

      • Lol… about the urinals! I definitely believe in differences, thank goodness :).

        I strongly disagree that women cannot declare truth to men or be in leadership; those are the battles I’m referring to. There’s a long history of God using women in ministry that refute that notion, but if women or men are content to believe that God won’t speak through them to a man, I say, be it unto them according to their faith.

        Christian egalitarian women love the biological differences between men and women, but silence and subjugation doesn’t fall into that category.

        • I am of a belief that conservative women are active on the ground and collectively fight the inequity where they find it and collectively teach their sons and daughters by example and word.

          I am of the belief that appealing to gov’t to right wrongs invited them to assert power that theyy don’t have, abuse said power and therein is the ironic futility that there is nothing the feds can do to prevent … only punish after the fact, which for all the laws they have managed to pass, does not save one victim but lets perps off the hook, anyway.

          Self reliance and strong community are the answers.

          No taboo is too perverse for gov’t but the effective foil is the old way, communities that make pariahs of those who undermine wholesome values.

          Do we have a right to roll in the gutter? Sure.

          But we have NO right to make such the moral equivalence of being a responsible adult with honor and integrity.


          • Uh Oh… bib,

            I got lost there… are we talking here about women in ministry???

          • IMO, Ministry is not limited to the clergy, Diane.

            Apostles are not either. Christian soldiers are everyday people, leading by example and spreading God’s love.

            It’s intertwined methinks. A nun can’t be a priest but she can minister. A mother can’t be a nun but she too does ministry.

            Portions of the womens’ movement that have lost their way are either those who are Godless or have rationalized away the moral teachings or tried to make some moral equivocation.

            In today’s political dichotomy as demonstrated by the looseness of our culture, one can not talk in terms of rights if devoid of human dignity.

            And so if morality today can only come from that part of the movement that are of the religiosity persuasion, then the ministry must be performed by all.

            Because the plain truth of it all is that our culture has politicized God.

            God’s laws have been perverted. I know that makes me sound like an evangelista. I’m decidedly not.

      • I absolutely do not believe there is no difference; I think the difference in how the brains work is as important as any reproductive organs. I think women are complete human beings entitled to all life has to offer even if they never reproduce. It is because of those differences that I believe we need the ERA. Right now most societies are patriarchies (because of the teachings of various religions)and women are usually assigned supportive roles. Nun but not priest, This is to say the least harmful to society in that the talents and skills of over 1/2 of the worlds population are underutilized. The old roles might have made a bit of sense when life-expectancy was forty and the planet had room for an ever increasing population.

        While one of my daughters was in college she was studying the bible and reading the original untranslated texts. She made a very good argument that if you removed the teachings of Saul/Paul women would be in a lot diferent position.

        The urinal comment I find smug and hopefully beneath you.

        • Please ms, it is debate, do not take personally, the urinal comment was for those in the dichotomy who would have the equal as equal as in the same as in no difference.

          I don’t think that’s you but I do think that it made the point I tried to make.

          IF we are to gain equal rights in all areas of the “arena” it will be by doing it ourselves, not legislating.

          Already women comprise more in numbers in college and the workforce, they have a very healthy proportion of the sciences and professional positions.

          As the marxists/socialists stopped looking for political affirmation and simply invaded both parties, we too should take their example.

          There is nothing at all stopping any female from pursuing higher endeavors but they themselves.

          Power will NEVER be conceded no matter who is in charge. Power is taken it is won, it is confiscated.

          This is an issue of power, who wants it, who has it.

  23. I am a liberal in many ways. I am one of many women who are pro-choice even if I would not choose to have an abortion. I object to that idea of choosing to have a child is apparently under assault. I object to the use of abortion as it has been in China to abort for gender.

    I absolutely support gay rights and I say this with no personal stake in it other than a belief that gays and lesbians are where women and Blacks were historically.

    I am anti-death penalty even though my interest in rape crisis came from the rape and murder of a friend (white by a black man). He was executed after about 20 years on death row.

    I want universal health care but want nothing to do with anything Obama touches. Have to let the dogs out. Later

    • I too am liberal in many ways, too:

      I have historically been against the death penalty in general but of late have been reconsidering in certain cases, especially serial sexual predators who prey on our children and minors.

      I have no problem with gay rights, am against gay marriage because childrens welfare always trumps adults’ “rights.” Since the sociological purpose of marriage has, since primitive times been the propagation of children, community and economic means to do it with security, gay marriage is an oxymoron as far as I’m concerned.

      I do not want universal health care on consitutional grounds, when considering all social constructs, the consitution trumps all. That goes for the current Dem plan, the proposed GOP plan and Hillerycare which opened the doors for the current broken system.

      I am more liberal than you methinks regards abortion because being pro life IS the socially liberal position to take.

      Said Pro life position does not back women into having to abort, it offers an alternative to abortion, that is the TRULY liberal social support system for women to actually having TWO legit options, abortion or reasonable economic support while a mother gets educated and employed in jobs good enough to support themselves and their children.

      For years I considered myself conservative, I realize now I am much more libertarian and believe it or not, libertarians are the true liberals in ideology. The difference methinks is libertarians base their convictions with a healthy portion of personal responsibility holding that adults have an obligation to help themselves before the put their hands out.

      Maybe a good discussion would revolve around liberalism and libertarianism and how both viewpoints consider the equal protections/equal rights clause of the constitution applies.

  24. I don’t want to hijack this thread with a long response, but in a nutshell, there are Christians that believe that the birth, ministry, death and resurrection of Christ has done away with priest going into the Holy of holies on behalf of sin. We are now the priesthood of believers, both men and women, no moral equivocation, or politicizing God. Women and men are able to pray to the Father, give and take communion. These discussion have been going on for hundreds of years, so no need to beat that dead horse here.

    You disagree with my position, I respect that.

  25. Diane: ” …. You disagree with my position, I respect that.”

    I do? 😮

    • I’m sorry bib,

      I think I got lost a couple of comments ago when I was trying to clarify that I believe God raises up women for leadership as well as men. I don’t categorize silence and subjugation as “biological differences”, but as oppression and something Christ condemns. I could have misunderstood your responses, but I was left with the impression that you disagreed. 🙂

  26. I don’t consider biological differences cause for subjugation or silence.

    I acknowledge they are there, “viva la difference!”

    I believe we all have a God given duty to live up to our highest abilities and to work to make the world a place that all not only can but do.

    That is ministry to me. We need not all go to the darkest Africa and minister to 1,000’s at a time. we need not stand in the pulpit and deliver sermons to the “choir.”

    Our message is spread by word and example. Our gender does not make that any less real or worthy. Indeed, it is our biological nature to be the nurturers that puts us into a superior postition to do just that.

    We minister to those in our circle and collectively, that’s zillions.

    Anyone who has ever known me knows I am the last one who could ever be subjugated to anyone.

    (Well, except my kids/motherhood but even then, my terms. I admit though, to me there is a certain indentured servitude when one has kids that never ends. 🙂 )

  27. I don’t think the women in the Catholic Church, who are dealing with this first hand, feel biological differences should be a cause for their silence either. They recognize their biological differences and yet maintain their right to declare the Gospel, teachings, and commands of Jesus Christ.

    I totally agree with you about our example in our current surroundings.

    Ok bib, it has been a joy talking to you and MsBehaved today, but it’s off to bed for me :)!

    • Should have done more paperwork than I did today, naughty, naughty.

      I am not sure about Catholic women being silent on anything. I was raised in the church, went to parochial schools, taught by the nuns and within an extended Catholic family.

      I myself can be relentless in debate because I took so much to heart when the nuns would say “Have the courage of your convictions.”

      I did not know a one to be silent or subjugated, they all had/have very big mouths like me. 🙂

      If there was a common theme in every family within, it was along the lines of “He rules the roost. I rule the rooster.”

      Anecdotal to be sure but if Catholic women are oppressed and subjugated at home, I haven’t seen it.

      As far as nuns being oppressed becaue they are prohibited from priesthood, I don’t see it that way at all anymore than I see priests as oppressed because they can’t be nuns. The vocations are defined a bit differently but no way nuns don’t get to minister and even preach. (Lord knows, I heard loads of them preaching).

      • Let’s pretend for awhile that Catholics still follow the rules. I remember a family that actually had 17 biological children..I remember a girl from a family with 7 children telling me that the Bishop had turned down her mother’s request to use effective birth control even though a Dr. had warned her that she would probably not live through another pregnancy. How many Catholic women had hysterectomies in order to not have any more children?
        I’m really guessing here, but it seems to me that a priest can do anything a nun can but a nun can not administer the Sacraments. Is there a biological reason for that?
        I feel that the urinal comment and sarcasm in gereral take things out of the realm of debate.

        • I responded about the sacraments to Diane below. A quick synopsis:

          Only a priest can hear confession, perform extreme unction (last rights) and ordination of priests into the ministry.

          Any laity can administer communion and baptism.

          The sacrament of marriage requires a man, a woman and a lifetime commitment before God. They can do it themselves, it is recommended but not dictated that a priest be there.

          That leaves confirmation which, based on scripture, the bishop in his role as “apostle” performs, priests are not permitted.

          Faithful Catholics DO follow all the rules. Believe ot or not, there are still some out there.

          I hate moral equivocatrions as a rule but can not resist, here:

          How many women today are getting hysterectomies and masectomies to avoid cancer?

          Bottom line, if a Catholic women, no matter how many kids got a hysterectomy to avoid having kids, it is no different than using any other form of birth control.

          The church recognizes the medical need for hysterectomies but not as bc.

          And do you know the etymology of the word “hysterectomy?”

          Seems the procedure has been used to abuse women for all manner of excuses in the past.

          Regards who can do what, it is a comparison of apples and oranges, the job titles demote different roles for the different work of ministry.

          If you take as a given that ANY church’s founding principal is ministry and the propagation of the faith, then the RC is no different.

          Ultimately, it’s not like the church drafts women (or men) inducting them in and insisting they serve.

          It’s all voluntary, personal choice, even if you will, “vocation,” the rules and expectation clearly defined and YEARS of waiting and “practicing” in the novitiate ensures that both the RC and the novitiates clearly desire the life. There is no oppression involved.

          As far as the church historically holding against abortion, so did the medical field since the days of Hippocrates until the leftist insistence of the “new and improved” Hippocratic oath.

          As far as the unrinal comment, I see I hit a nerve for which I am truly sorry that I offended you with it.

          • I am certainly not an expert on the Catholic Church but historically I believe there was a teaching that quickening or the mother feeling the baby moving was believed to be the descent of the soul into the baby/fetus. He/she became a child of God somewhere in the 4th or 5th month of pregnancy.

            In the Catholic Church, marrriage is a sacrament that requires a man and a woman. This is true of many churches. We have a separation of church and state in this country. Marriage within a church is a choice. I see no conflict if gay/lesbian people want to be married outside any church that defines marriage as between a man and a woman. You might look upon it as a sin or even an abomination but unless you are condemned for the actions of another, I don’t see how it is a concern for you.

            How does having a hysterectomy to avoid cancer comparable to having one because another pregnancy might prove fatal to the mother. Back in the days and perhaps even now, a woman unable to deliver a baby was allowed to die. The procedure involved in ‘partial birth’ abortion was first used as a way to save the mother if the baby was hydrocephalic. Rather then both baby and mother dying, the baby was ‘sacraficed’ so that the mother might live.

            I see the cartoon drawings of the ‘partial birth’ procedure that is so popular with Fred Phelps and others in the pro-life movement and wonder why they show a breach birth. I would guess but do not know that doctors are unlikely to purposely deliver the body first. I should also be noted that the brain has no pain receptors. Brain surgery is often done while the patient is awake.

            If a woman in India is entered into an arranged marriage because she has never been exposed to the idea that she has another choice, is she freely choosing. Is there a biological difference is a woman’s ears that renders her unable to hear a confession?

            I have said in the chatroom that I don’t want to argue with you. You say it is debate. Though I can not speak for BettyJean, I think the Majority United was started on the idea that women can learn to respect one anothers’ differences of opinion. I think faith is a wonderful gift but by the churches own definition it is a gift that some receive and others don’t. Your own experience with deciding to have a child and all that followed was a gift for you. I ask you to contemplate for a minute how you might have behaved if you had never felt that.

        • Catholics hold that life begins at conception. “Before you were in your monther’s womb, I knew you.”

          COnsitutionally speaking, the gov’t is prohibited from establishing a national religion, prohibited from interefering or exercising any authority over religion.

          That road does not run both ways, people of faith can certainly (under the 9th, 10th, 11th Amendments) consider their religious beliefs when deciding what laws gov’t can obligate them to or can not. IOW, separation of church and state as is now in the vernacular is a misnomer, the constitution compels state to keep hands off and nose out of all faiths. It does not compel people of faith to keep their noses out of gov’t.

          Hysterectomies to avoid terminal/fatal possibilities are not different, IMO. Both are performed for the same basic concern and both on possibilities not absolutes.

          Not an afficiando of Phelps have never watched his or any other procedure. The issue is too inflaming from the get go, I try to let reason prevail, not emotion. If we are to reach understanding it must be logic, factual and cerebral, it can’t be emotionally charged.

          I was raised to be a “good Catholic girl,” go from under my father’s roof and into my husband’s bed. My parents gave me no choice. By the age of 6 “Because you are a girl” was already old. Because of culture, the girl/woman may have no choice but I would venture to say, all are aware that they don’t which comes to bear when the spouce chosen is not of their own liking. My g’mother was committed to an arranged marriage at birth. She grew up and fell in love w/someone else. She knew the difference.

          I call it debate and I do not come from the religous perspective. I didn’t bring up the religious perspective. MY perspective has yet to be mentioned.

          I look at the science of it. When R v W passed, the science was different. There were no ultrasounds and the procedure was kept in the dark. Even the science of it today proves that human life begins at conception. For me, that is the fundamental fact and issue that must be honestly addressed. If we are to be for abortion on demand we must then accept we approve of the taking of a human life and go from there.

          For me the reality of it is not something I need to see on Phelps or anywhere else.

          Bottom line for me and I don’t know if you can see your way clear that far to even consider but as a woman, a feminist, a human being, abortion is as much VAW as her husband or father beating the crap out of her.

          • Actually it was you who first brought religion into this thread (on November 4). I checked up on my own statement above because it was something I thought I had read a long time ago. St. Augustine , I believe Thomas Aquinas and two popes defined quickening as the descent of the soul and had no problem with abortion before then.
            Don’t you think that by government not establishing a religion it means that one religion expecting laws made to protect the beliefs of that religion can not discriminate against the beliefs of another religion or even no religion at all?

            One hysterectomy could have been avoided if the woman was allowed to practice birth control. Do you truly see no difference?

            In going back over the posting to find where religion was brought up I noticed that BJ asked that abortion not be brought to this table. If I had read that at the time I would not have discussed it here. I would also like you to consider that liberal and conservative and all such labels nullify individuals. While it might be convenient it does little to further dialogue and understanding.

          • I do not recall brining up religion in context of abortion, I brought up the denigration of conservative viewpoint with the right wing evangelical accusation.

            That was not to imply that women against abortion are right wing evangicals. only niched so by media, press, left wing to marginalize.

            Regards left and right, liberal conservative, read the 1st 5 paragraphs of bj’sopening thread. She was nailing both sides.

            What I did bring up was abortion because I see it as a huge chasm that divides.

            Regards quickening, aborting a pregnancy at any time of the duration was always verboten by the church. Maybe in Aquinas’ time they thought the soul entered at quickening, but I can tell you, even in his time, abortion before or after quickening was outlawed.

            It’s not a matter of outsiders agreeing to the RC dogma and it’s not up to the RC to apologize for those things outsiders see as illogical or unfair.

            Choosing to be Catholic is an individual choice and those who choose know the rules and restrictions going in.

            It’s informed consent. Would that women be given all the info at PP so they could give informed concent, too.

            I don’t want to argue abortion from a religious standpoint.

            I would debate it on a scientific one, a moral one. I don;t think one need be religious to have morals, ethics, integrity or intellectual honesty.

            So I will further aggravate you with this: The “few and rare’ that we hear proponents talk about would be the examples you cited.

            Let’s talk about the other 48 million, too.

          • Again Bib, as much as I might be tempted to reply, I will respect BJs wishes both here and in the chatroom. I am sure you can find other avenues of expression on the internet or elsewhere.

          • Re: ” Again Bib, as much as I might be tempted to reply, I will respect BJs wishes both here and in the chatroom. I am sure you can find other avenues of expression on the internet or elsewhere. ….”

            It is my understanding that bj would like to get the 52% together as a voting block.

            I would, too.

            It will never happen until there is some kind of meeting of the minds on the issues that divide.

            A huge one is abortion and so I brought it up and tackled.

            BJ said not here, I apologized but then others stayed w/it, so did I.

            It’s an emotional issue for the “emotional” gender.

            If you don’t want to talk about it, so be it. I don’t need to “express” myself “elsewhere.”

            I simply tried to cross the divide as I agree w/bj’s desire to bring the sides together, if we can somehow find a way to succeed.

            The divide will remain as long as there is no dialogue. It is what it is.

            But please, don’t dismiss me as if I am some 1st grader.

  28. Lol… I know I said I was going to bed….


    Female and male can exercise their God given gifts as He wills, not man. I’m not Catholic, and don’t believe in priest, so for me this issue is the rights of these women to exercise the authority given to them by Christ to pray, declare the Word of God, administer communion to congregation, be active in overseeing etc., not perpetually tucked away somewhere silent…

    ok bib… lol, this time I’m going to bed :)!

    • ” …. the rights of these women to exercise the authority given to them by Christ to pray, declare the Word of God, administer communion to congregation, be active in overseeing etc., …”

      What makes you think Catholic women can’t?

      The only things a priest can do that nuns and parishoners can’t do is transubstantiation and exclusively administer 3 of the 7 sacraments.

      (A priest can not perform confirmation, it has to be a bishop in keeping with Scriptural translation).

      Any Catholic can administer baptism and communion and in the RC, marriage is a ritual performed BY the man and woman and technically, despite tradition and church preference, does not require a priest.

      I’ve never understood why outsiders think Catholic women are oppressed. It’s never been my experience.

      • BTW, the other 3 sacraments, confession, for obvious reasons, last rights and ordination.

        Catholics are obligated to the sacrament of confession once a year. (Whether they need it or not. 🙂 )

        Contrary to popular opinion, they routinely confess the same way others do, direct to God and for some of us, on a daily basis. 🙂

        That outsiders think that Catholics have “no personal relationship with God” and can only relate thru the organization can not be more erroneous, btw.

  29. Re: “Just wanted to post the facts about DES and breast cancer risk as per the American Cancer Society.”

    First, I thought you were dropping the subject. Or was it just me you were dropping from the conversation?

    But citing associations that are complicit w/gov’t sources and lobbies does not much impress me.

    The CDC is out there saying the swine flu virus is safe and necessary. Neither assertion is true.

    I can cite a laundry list of such perverted “facts.”

    That said, I will be clear. I do not believe the ACS. The abortion industry makes billions and are donors or members to the ACS. Conflict of interest.

    FWIW, those who have historically been left of center are newly awakening to the fact that gov’t/lobbyist talking points are propagated by a lying media.

    This has long been observed and known by those of us on the right.

    We have created a wide, if loose knit cooperation of getting the real news and facts, marginalizing the lies and the media as they have marginalized both facts and citizens.

    That ACS says it for me is well, underwhelming.

    Anecdotal info must be weighed since there is a conserted dirth of studies that might end up with the real facts the indistry does not want you to know.

    Like 500 hospitals have dropped the procedure since the 80’s.

    and the “number of new doctors … taking the training to perform has plummeted..”

    and “fewer doctors willing to perform the procedure.


    Doctors refusing to perform (of course our press won’t report about the ones here),


    You read stories about gov’t intervention plans that would require doctors and nurses to be involved and even threats to Caholic hospitals which have historically refused.

    You then must ask why?

    Answer: Those on the front lines deal with the reality and are repulsed by it. Their words, not mine.

    Anyway, rather than believe the state sanctioned ACS or abortion industry’s word, I give more credibility to the Doctors themselves a link I supplied in previous comments.

    Also, the studies done overseas like the one from Sweden that showed the heightened death rates and other carnage that young women are suffering within 2 years of abortion.

    Ultimately, abortion is IMO a violent and hostile act performed against women.

  30. Excellent blog here! Also your web site loads up fast!
    What host are you using? Can I get your affiliate link to your
    host? I wish my site loaded up as quickly as yours lol

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